Podcast transcription: Contemporary Art in Mexico City with Georgina Bringas and Ricardo Rendón
Glen Nelson
Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Center's Studio Podcast. I'm your host, Glen Nelson in New York. And I'm speaking today with Georgina Bringas and Ricardo Rendón, two artists living and working in Mexico City. Hello, Georgina and Ricardo. Thank you for joining me.
Ricardo Rendón
Hi.
Georgina Bringas
Thank you. Thank you, Glen.
Glen Nelson
It was about a year ago that a friend of mine in Texas told me about you, Georgina, and you and I have been communicating back and forth since then. What did you think when I first contacted you like, out of the blue? Who is this crazy guy in New York?
Georgina Bringas
Okay, no, no. It's a pleasure. For me, what's something new, I didn't expect. I was very important for me this contact with you. Sorry about my English, but I'm going to try to speak by myself. That year, I decided to enter to the Church art contest and relate to US in the way to bring my job and closer to what I believe, and show my work in that contest. For me it was very important to, to show my work in the museum of the Church.
Glen Nelson
And that was the first time that you had submitted work to the Church History Museum?
Georgina Bringas
Yes.
Glen Nelson
I'll tell you, you say it was a pleasure for me to contact you. But I think I was the lucky one. To find you. I just immediately loved your work. And Ricardo I came across your work a tiny bit later but instantly fell in love with it as well. How long have the two of you been married?
Ricardo Rendón
Hello, Glen, and thanks for the interview. We've been married for almost 17 years. And we have two kids. A boy of 11 years and a girl of 7 years.
Georgina Bringas
We are working in homeschool with our kids since five years ago. And now we are having a great time and despite a pandemic, because we are used to it. And this is very fun. It's a little bit complicated, but it's very, very interesting.
Glen Nelson
Well, all of my friends who have kids at home are just scrambling trying to figure out how to do it. So you're lucky. You're ahead of the curve there.
Georgina Bringas
Yeah, yeah.
Glen Nelson
Let me, let me ask you about becoming artists. Do you have other members of your family who are artists? And how did you decide to become artists yourselves?
Georgina Bringas
There were no artists in my family. My father was an engineer. And my mom worked in a beauty parlor. My dad liked to paint but he worked. So the thing that motivated me to do art was to see the enthusiasm of my father when he used to paint. But one of my sisters' boyfriends studied studio art. And at that time I went to them to exhibitions and museums. And I saw some impressive pieces that was very important for me. I didn't understand anything at that time. But I realized that I wanted to learn more about art. And that was, that's why I decided to study art.
Glen Nelson
Do you remember what the artwork was that inspired you to become an artist?
Georgina Bringas
Yes, sure. Was there one piece from Anthony Gormley. It was a installation of small pieces of clay. A lot, I dunno, thousands of pieces of clay. And it was sitting on the floor. For me in that moment, I didn't understand anything, but was very impressive, for me. Was something that changed my life. I for me was a revelation in that moment because I understand something and why, but for me was very, very impressive that pieces of that artist.
Glen Nelson
Wow. Yeah. I know his work. So it was a big installation. Do you think that that was one reason why you leaned toward being an installation artist instead of, let's say, a painter?
Georgina Bringas
No, I no. I was like 13 years old, I was so young.
Glen Nelson
Ricardo, what about you? How did you get into art?
Ricardo Rendón
Well, I used to, from since I was a small boy, I used to try to find a lot of ways to express myself. And I was always the boy at school that made drawings on the tables all the time, and I got punished because of that. And since I was a little bit older, I used to, I had a lot of friends bigger than me in age, but with the same interest in, like, expression, and creativity, and art. That's how I got to go to museums and to see exhibitions. And also my mother was an oil and watercolor painter, but not in a professional way.
Glen Nelson
And so the two of you are both artists, but you don't make art together, you don't collaborate together. But do you have separate studios? Or do you share studios in Mexico City?
Georgina Bringas
No, we have our separate studios, because Ricardo works a lot with tools, or a lot of machines that make a lot of dust. And I don't like it. But I have a little studio here in my house. And that gives me the possibility to stay with my kids and work at the same time. But it's very small for very small pieces. For me, it's very important to try to keep all under control, and in a very small place. And Ricardo has his own space next to the house.
Ricardo Rendón
Yes, I used to have my workshop here at home, when I began to work with, you know like wood or, mostly materials that make a lot of dust and, and thinner and chemicals and stuff like that. It was a mess at home, so it wasn't possible to continue to work here. So I have my workshop, which is around the corner from the place we live. So it's very convenient. Because I can spend the time with my family. Every day we eat together, we don't have a time to be away. We are really, really close. And my workshop is a warehouse where I can work with a lot of materials in a safe environment.
Glen Nelson
What about your children? Do they, are they interested in art, too?
Georgina Bringas
I think part of my work, I'm a homeschool Mom, I'm trying to teach them something about art. And every day I try to make something. In this day, I make a drawing of the cat, our cat is our model. And for me, it's very important to give the experience to make some art. Skills, to grade, or throw paint or I don't know, installation too. I don't know if they will be interested in art when they become adults. But maybe, I think is that a tool for them, whatever they want to do. I think they need to know how to understand art because their parents are artists.
Glen Nelson
I think so too. Are both of you from Mexico, originally? Right from Mexico City, or were you born elsewhere?
Ricardo Rendón
No, from Mexico City, but we both were born and raised in Mexico City.
Glen Nelson
Let me tell a little bit about your work. I have your CVs here, and I think they give a little bit of information that will be good to know. Georgina, you mentioned your English. I'll tell you reading through all of this, you're gonna hear very quickly how bad my Spanish is. I was a missionary in Latin America 40 years ago, and I don't think I spoke well then, and I certainly don't now, but here's what we've got. Georgina Bringas graduated with a BFA at the La Esmeralda National School of Painting, Sculpture and Engraving. Since 1996, she has worked with video installation, drawing and sculpture, among other media. As resources to investigate the perception of time, space, and their artistic representations. And to represent these concepts in measurement. Georgina, one of my favorite of your quotations is this one, "To measure is to learn." And we'll talk about that a little bit more in a minute. She is part of a selection of Latin American artists in Abstraction in Action, Sayago and Pardon project. She is the winner of multiple prizes and honors in Mexico, The United States, and Canada. She has exhibited her work collectively at Espacio de Arte Contemporáneo (ESPAC), Museo Universitario de Arte Contemporáneo (MUAC), Museo Nacional de la Estampa, Museo de Arte Moderno, Museo Experimental El Eco, Centro Nacional de las Artes, Centro Cultural Border, among other spaces in Mexico City. Also, at the Museum of Modern Art in Bogotá, Space Piano Nobile in Geneva; Kunstlerhaus Bethanien in Berlin; Isola Art Center in Milan; Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía in Madrid; Select Media Festival in Chicago; Harto Espacio Gallery in Montevideo; El Águila Cultural Complex, Madrid; at the university art galleries in University of California, San Diego, among other places. That's quite a lot. All right, let me jump to Ricardo now. Ricardo Rendon has achieved several international awards and recognitions. His works have been exhibited at the Reina Sofia Museum, the Kunstlerhaus Bethanien,Videobrasil, Videolisboa, UCSD University Art Gallery, Maison Rouge in Paris, Museo Experimental El Eco, Museo Tamayo, Museo Universitario de Arte Contemporáneo, Museo de Arte Carrillo Gil, Museo de Arte Moderno and Laboratorio Arte Alameda in Mexico City. His work is part of important contemporary art collections, such as the Cisneros Fontanals. How do you, is that right?
Ricardo Rendón
Yeah, Fontanals.
Glen Nelson
Thank you. Art Foundation, Sayago & Pardon Collection, The Bank of America, La Colección Jumex, the Isabel & Agustin Coppel Collection, Fondation Daniel Langlois and Museo Universitario de Arte Contemporáneo. He is member of the Sistema Nacional de Creadores. Rendón is represented by Arróniz Arte Contemporáneo in Mexico City, Galería Nueveochenta in Bogotá, Zipper Galeria in São Paulo Brazil, Galerie Wenger, Switzerland, and Galeria Espaciominimo in Madrid. He lives and works in Mexico City. Wow, that's a lot of exhibitions, you two! You are busy people!
Ricardo Rendón
Yeah.
Glen Nelson
Before I forget, I want to get out your websites so people who are listening can look you up as we're talking. In both cases the websites are simply their names: georginabringas.com and ricardorendon.com. Okay, that covers that part of the business side of it.
Georgina Bringas
Thank you.
Glen Nelson
I'm exhausted. I'm exhausted just reading about how many exhibitions you have going on. And I was looking in preparation for our chat today. It looks like right now, I know some of these are ending at the end of this month, but you have four different exhibitions going on. A Museum in Arizona: Histories of Abstraction: Latin American Contemporary Art in the Global Context. That's at the Phoenix Art Museum. Ricardo has a huge installation of iron and steel cable, part of an exhibition title, "The Storm" at Central Cultural Teopanzolco, and Georgina also has worked at that cultural center through the end of the month. Georgina's work is also part of a group show called "Insula" at the gallery that represents her in Mexico City, Le Laboratoire, where she is showing some of her new works made of colorful plastic cables that form amazing geometric pattern, and color, and line. So how does it feel to you to have so much work being exhibited all at one time? Is that normal for you? Or is this a little bit exceptional?
Ricardo Rendón
Well, it depends. There are some times in the year that you get a lot of work and sometimes you don't get nothing. So that's the thing of being self-employed. Our business is quite irregular in that fashion. It depends a lot. There are a lot of things.
Georgina Bringas
Yet, in my case it is sometimes, it's complicated, because I can't go out of the country, for example, because of my kids. Or I think sometimes Ricardo has more opportunity to go to exhibitions. Um, well, I think it's it's good sometimes that he makes his exhibition and sometimes I can go to exhibitions.
Glen Nelson
Right, so let's say Ricardo, let's say you're showing in Switzerland. Do you go and install the work at the gallery or, do they, or do you send it? What about the travel side of it?
Ricardo Rendón
Yeah, well, it depends. Mostly I prefer to do the work because it's part of, we will talk about that. It's part of my statement. But when I have a show, like in another country, if it's a solo show, I travel, and I do all the work. Only, like very special projects, when it's like a group show, and they want me to go and make an installation, I can do that. And I love to do that. It's a way of working. And I try to dialogue with the space, and the place, and the city. And all those conditions of the space and, and the city also, and the people, getting to know people. That are conditions that I like to work.
Glen Nelson
Right. So let's say this exhibition in Arizona. You weren't able, the two of you weren't able to go see your work there. Is that right?
Ricardo Rendón
No, no. The thing is that this exhibition is a show of a private collection, The Sayago & Pardon Collection, who donated the whole work, the whole collection, to the Phoenix museum. So it's work that is, it's done already. And they just show the work.
Glen Nelson
I think, speaking of the work, let's talk about it and try to describe it. You know, if you're just listening and you can't have the image in front of you, sometimes it's a little difficult to imagine what it is that we're talking about. Both of you are sculptors and installation artists. Can you help listeners by describing what some of your works look like? So let's see if we can, let's do something a little bit fun. Georgina, why don't you try to describe Ricardo's works first. What are they like?
Georgina Bringas
Okay, Ricardo's work is very, very complex. But...
Glen Nelson
It's true.
Georgina Bringas
Formally, it's very complex. But also it is very complex, because he investigates different traditional trades, and the process to make the pieces by himself. So he tries to solve; he make works in different materials like metal, wood, or could be filled concrete. I don't know, it's very complicated. Um, but informally, he's always tried to make simple figures. But that I think the important thing is the process of the piece. And the other thing that is important is that he made it by himself. He's learning about the necessary to, to live the experience of created or different context. He doesn't hire assistants to send the job to, for someone to do it. He loves to do that kind of process and is really enjoyed to make work. And, and I think it's, but formally think it's complicated because it could be with simple forms, with a process very complex at the same time.
Glen Nelson
I remember one of the first works that I saw of yours, Ricardo was a big felt work. And so maybe I could describe it. So you had these huge sheets of, I assume it was like industrial wool felt or something, and they were attached, kind of draped to the exhibition wall. Then you cut many holes into the felt in geometric patterns, almost like a contemporary lace. And as you did this, the cut holes mounded up on the floor beneath the artwork. So the final result was a beautiful and much manipulated textile. But also it was a documentation of how it got that way. I mean, is that sort of, am I kind of accurate in the way I'm describing it?
Ricardo Rendón
It's perfect.
Glen Nelson
Alright Georgina. So we've described Ricardo's works just a little bit. Ricardo, how would you describe what Georgina's works look like?
Ricardo Rendón
Well also, Georgina, she works in a broad range of mediums. From sculpture to installation, and to bi-dimensional assemblage and objects. I think one of her main subjects of research is the interpretation or representation of space and time. And how can she represent these ideas or these concepts through their own means and measurement systems. She makes her own measurement systems to represent space. And for that she uses a lot of materials, like ropes to represent distances; videotape, to talk about the landscape or time for example; images of clocks for example, to represent time. That's some of the ideas she works on. It's, it's very beautiful. It's complex, too, but in the same way as an image it's mostly abstraction. You see lines, or you see colors, mostly. But those lines and those colors represent or are related to a specific distance or a specific time.
Glen Nelson
Alright, Georgina, how did he do? Does that sound good to you?
Georgina Bringas
I think it'sa very good description.
Glen Nelson
You have a new piece called, the English title is "Spirit and matter are only two poles of the same" (El espíritu y la materia no son más que dos polos de lo mismo). If you were at an exhibition and somebody who was visually impaired came to you to describe what that looks like, how would you describe it physically?
Georgina Bringas
It's a sculpture made with a series of one meter by one meter made out of metal frames that are intervening with plastic cable of opposite colors placed in front of each other. Making a construction with the frames. And it is sitting in the floor, and I think there are five or six elements of this sculpture.
Glen Nelson
The plastic cables are attached to the steel frame and they kind of lace back and forth. And these make patterns, but because there are two different colors, the way that they interact, kind of creates this buzz. This vibration. They remind me of some American minimalist artists that I really love, like Fred Sandback, Sol LeWitt, even Dan Flavin, in the sense of the vibration. So the thing about these, though, is when you're looking at them, you can see through them. So how does that transparency and overlap help you in the effect that you're trying to accomplish? It would be different, let's say, if these were all just mounted flat to the wall, right? Although, you do have a few of these that are mounted to the wall.
Georgina Bringas
Yes, this series starts from drawings. For me it's a work that comes from drawing and movement. The two dimensional drawings are brought into three dimensional space and is an activated, but it's activated by the movement of the viewer. When you walk around, the planes overlap and new views are formed. So it's important to walk around them, and for me it's a way to make them give movement to the draw. At the beginning for the exhibition in Teopanzolco, I was planning to make a specific side piece. But due to the Covid pandemic, I decided to modify the project and make a sculpture that will be formally related to the exhibition space, but in a sense, at the same time with idea that I, that I've had from the side specific piece.
Glen Nelson
Can we talk about the title a minute? So spirit and matter? Tell me about that. Did you come up with the title after the work was completed? Or were spirit and matter two things that you were really trying to represent in some way?
Georgina Bringas
Okay. I was thinking that for me, it's important to try to find in my work, something where they think that I believe. At the beginning, I was just trying to investigate the space and time but on some pieces I noticed that was something more. And this time I tried to, to find in the color, in the lines, in the formal, in the formal elements, something that remains to me something about the thing that I believe. For me, I was reading in a scripture and Doctrine and Covenants, the scripture that says spirit and matter are the same, is making of the same kind of material. So for me, everything that exists, has material. Maybe we can, we can understand what kind of material is the spirit, that if it exists is because it's material. And I try to reveal this reflection in my work and try to make visible, something that maybe it's not. That two different supports, two different colors. But both when you walk around them, you can overlap. And you can see another thing different. For me, that's the way to reveal something about the life the way that we sometimes you are in now, point but when you leave the different kinds of different things in your life, you can have a different point of view. I think it's something related with that.
Glen Nelson
Just today on Facebook, you posted Section 131 from the Doctrine and Covenants, which says, "Every spirit is matter, but it is more refined or pure and only the purest eyes can discern it."
Georgina Bringas
That is related with that kind of work for me.
Glen Nelson
Regarding spirit and matter, you write: "... the distance that exists between two poles are scales that bind them. In the case of this series, the proximity and distance of opposing colors that are united through the vibration generated by the overlapping of brackets is explored." I really like that word "vibration." Let me ask you another thing. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will recognize familiar phrases and concepts in some of the titles of your work. Another recent work is "The Vibration of the Spirit is Endless." Are spirituality and art things that you think about a lot in your creative process?
Georgina Bringas
Okay, for me vibration, I like that word, because I think is this word makes a union between all the words that I work in, since I was in school. For me, vibration is related to life. Everything that has life has vibration--in our heart, in the sound, in the light. Every single thing from very small or the universe, and you can find the vibration, like a common characteristic of the life. And for me, that part of vibration is something that you can, in a way that I can understand. I was working on a piece about this, I was thinking in this phrase about vibration, that everything is vibration in the life. And in that year 2017, we have a very big earthquake here in Mexico. And for me was a very important way to understand. Vibration is life, but all vibration, it could be destruction too. So for me, it's a word that remembers the need of life. And the way that I want to show my work is to try to understand for me, what kind of vibration, how I can interpret it. I can understand the vibration in my life, and also the time and space, are vibration too, because we are living in a continuum. The space continuum, we can measure it. So I was thinking in that when I was, when I think of that word.
Glen Nelson
I like watching your Facebook feed. Because it's such an interesting mix of different things. You frequently post quotations by notable artists and philosophers, as well as uplifting statements by LDS General Authorities, like Elder Holland and Elder Renlund, recently. One seems to be just as important to you as the other. But I like the avant-garde too. So one day, you'll be posting images, you know, from filmmakers like Tarkovsky, Luis Bunuel, or Wim Wenders, and then the next day, you'll be giving a shout out to female surrealists and then the next day LDS Apostles. For you, are all of those different things equally important?
Georgina Bringas
For me it's part of my life. I think, my work and I try to understand my spiritual part, my spiritual way to understand the world. My human condition to understand the world. And I think that art is the way that I tried to understand both, and I tried to find something spiritual in everything. And I noticed that the artists, most of the artists are looking for something spiritual in their lives. And I know I was looking for work for Mark Rothko or Joseph Albers that some interpretation of his work is about the spirituality that they can feel when they are working in their worlds. They work, so for me, art is part of the way to understand both parts of my life: the spiritual part, and also the conceptual part of my life, and my human condition, as I say it.
Glen Nelson
Very beautiful. I love what you're talking about. You know, both of you are members of the Church. I think, Ricardo that your work isn't as obviously connected to religious belief. Is that right? Or do I have that wrong?
Ricardo Rendón
No, no, it's right. It's right, Glen.
Glen Nelson
Yeah. So let me ask you, Ricardo, what do you think about Georgina's work?
Ricardo Rendón
Yeah, I think they teach me a lot of the world we live in and also about the things we believe too. I love them because they're very attractive, not only because of their visuality, which are really appealing, but also of the concepts that are behind them. As you remark, they make connections with the history of conceptual and minimal art, but also the Latin American abstraction, which we really love those kind of art. And I found really interesting, the way she reflects on the idea of, of the spiritual through abstract mediums, such as color and lines. In a way it makes me remind also the, the abstract works of Kandinsky or Mathias Goeritz who look for this idea of the spiritual to the art practice.
Glen Nelson
There is, definitely, you know a metaphysical component, or you're trying to describe something that one can't articulate. Something mysterious. I think there's mystery in your work, Georgina. I love that. On your website, you have a beautiful artist statement that talks about space and distance and time. And I think I won't read it all. But I'll encourage our listeners to read it. It's really profound. But I'll read the first paragraph of what's basically a four-paragraph statement. This says, "From the personal purpose of establishing an approach to space, distance and time, I integrated into my artistic production process, quantitative elements, and values through calculations, units and instruments related to the concept and measurement systems, to which I have approached through video drawing, assembly and installation." It's really, really beautiful.
Georgina Bringas
Thank you.
Glen Nelson
Georgina before we move to Ricardo's work, I want to ask you, how your work is evolving and changing? When I started looking at earlier works of yours, I noticed that you had a lot of site specific installations. How do you see how your work has changed over the last few years?
Georgina Bringas
When it's possible, I prefer to work in site specific pieces. For me, it's like an exhibition space became my studio. I prefer to do it in this way, but not always is possible. And in this case of Teopanzolco, por ejemplo, for example, I wanted to do a site specific piece, and because of the pandemic and I could not to do it. And, I keep doing work in a specific place until before the pandemic and maybe a piece of tape of the gallery. And as soon as possible, I will do it. I prefer to work in this space. For me, it's very interesting experience. And the pieces of sculptures are different because you have a different position when you are working, and you can put them in the space, but I prefer to install something. To make part of the space. And I like also the process to destroy it, that when the exhibition's finished and you can, you don't keep anything that the piece. And for me it's something like a life, is like something that begins in one day, and also the piece dies and has a process like life. I think it's something interesting for me. That's why I prefer to make something inside a specific, but for me, it gave me that experience to, to understand also the time, but the time that the pieces is placed in the exhibition.
Glen Nelson
I don't think I've ever heard an artist talk about destroying work with such excitement.
Georgina Bringas
I know. It can be interesting, believe me.
Glen Nelson
Do you document the taking down of exhibitions like that?
Georgina Bringas
Yes, I think it's part the part of the piece of the document. But the moment of the destroying of the pieces for me is not important. But I like to do things to know that the pieces doesn't exist. And if we want to do it, I have to do it again from the beginning.
Glen Nelson
Wow, okay. You are referencing this Centro Cultural Teopanzolco. For somebody who is listening, I'll tell you, this space is one of the most beautiful exhibition and cultural art spaces in the world. It's by a fantastic architect. And it's kind of a super modern building. I think it was created, maybe in the last five years or so if I'm not mistaken. And it's right next to Aztec ruins. And so the the architecture, the design of it echoes that in some ways, and plays off it in other ways. It must be just the most beautiful place to work. You two must just love showing there.
Georgina Bringas
Yes.
Ricardo Rendón
It's a really amazing place.
Georgina Bringas
And I was talking with our friends that invite us and he told me that we can do it something a specific site, when the pandemic is over.
Ricardo Rendón
We want to go back, too.
Glen Nelson
Well, I want to come and visit. Can you be my tour guide, if I come and visit you, and take me there?
Ricardo Rendón
Yeah, it'd be an honor to go with you.
Georgina Bringas
Yes.
Glen Nelson
Georgina, in another conversation that we had, you mentioned that the LDS Church members where you live, probably don't know that much about art the same way that you two do, even though Mexico is a country of many, many museums, and has a long history of fine art excellence and tremendous influence in the rest of the world. But LDS members might not know who Sol LeWitt is, for example, or On Kawara, or some of the other people you've been referencing today. By the way, I would say that that's largely the same anywhere in the Church. Like, I hear from artists all over who wish that other people in their congregation understood them and art better. But let me ask you, how do members of the Church in Mexico respond to your work? I mean, in some cases, you know, it has a specific LDS theology baked into it. Are members of the Church there understanding that or responding to it?
Georgina Bringas
There is not much approach for contemporary art in Mexico. I believe that creating an audience to see art is part of the artist's social responsibility. And I can be from teaching or giving service, I try to share our experience in church, in activities. And I try to teach tools, so that the members of my ward, for example, can get closer to art. In Mexico, there is not much artistic education, but people are very intuitive, intuitive, and are interested in that, in a way, but we can show our work. And I try to speak a lot about art, and sometimes maybe doesn't understand the background, but they can feel it. And for me, it's very interesting. And it's mostly in the case of the kids. Sometimes they can feel it, they can say I know what is, but I feel something when I saw the piece or when I saw that kind of work, and for me it's very interesting. But I try to show them. Maybe they get bored of me, because I always am talking about art. But for us, results something crazy but interesting. Saying "Oh yes, you are our Sister that you are a little crazy, but you are so." For me it is interesting, and I think that responsibility is part of our work, as an artist.
Glen Nelson
Very, very good. Let's turn a little bit now to Ricardo and your work. Art critics writing in Mexico City and São Paulo said this about your work, “... In his works, Ricardo Rendón proposes a renaissance in reverse, that emphasizes manual work, and exposes the worker face of conceptual art, that which values the process, the singularity of each gesture...” “Gathering all kinds of materials and giving room to multiple formal solutions, media and work procedures, Ricardo Rendón’s work functions as a complex diary where the actions are recorded, documented and accumulated in the transformation and manipulation of the materials and the working place. His works are an appendix of construction or destruction practices that enunciate the moment where things happen, forms that propose the action as leitmotiv.” What did you think when you first saw critics responding to your work in this way, do you think they got it right? Regarding your intent?
Ricardo Rendón
I don't know. When I was at school at the University and trying, at the time of finishing my education, a lot of teachers didn't believe me. I remember a very good teacher, afriend of mine, who all the time told me, "I don't believe you." And it was, it was so funny. But art for me, it's a knowledge and a learning activity. So in that sense, it's not only that serves as a medium to understand the world around us, but also our people. So for me, the art practice is a way to know myself and to know about my capacity, my activity, and my artistic practice. So that's how I got into this research into the idea of process and execution. In that sense, I think my work, it's very performative in the way that it talks about the process. And about the moment when the work is done, or is created. It's this space in time that I really find a lot of richness as a space of knowledge and concentration. And that's why I am interested in researching in this idea of the execution, and the work process and to document and register also this, each time of this process.
Glen Nelson
Some of your work has interaction with the viewer. Like the viewer can go in and move aspects of the piece, almost like you've created an art machine.
Ricardo Rendón
Yeah.
Glen Nelson
One of the critics writing about your work was talking about the way about your emphasis on doing it yourself, instead of having assistants and other people doing it, almost as a political act. And you hinted about that earlier. Let me read what this critic said. “Ricardo Rendón proposes an epic that assaults architectures and objects equally. Its working project establishes a direct dialogue with the capital gain originated by the difference between the wages paid to the worker and the value generated by its manpower within the capitalist system. It is a query on the work and its sense by means of the experience. A narrative that the artist establishes leaving in most cases the waste of its activities within the place of intervention: swept to a corner, gathered inside a transparent container or scattered around the working site. Thus, he proposes a gesture that alludes to its procedure, a commemoration of every moment destined to the production of the capital gain.” I found that a very intriguing comment. The part of it that is about the process and how, how you can see with some of these works, how it was made. Because, let's say in the case of the felt works, you know, there are little pieces of felt on the ground, the leftovers. What do you make of this statement about the disparity of wages paid to the worker and value generated by artists in a capitalist system, and basically a political reading of your artworks? Is that something that you're comfortable with?
Ricardo Rendón
Well, since I began to reflect in the idea of process, I began to study the concept of labor and work, also. And what does that mean, in the art practice also? So to amplify this research, I began to approximate to get close to another working environment where labor is very specific in the sense of a direct contact with material; the worker and the material. So that's how I got into these small jobs and traditional trades, and labor trades, like machinery or carpentry and leather, are these small trades that I believe are in, almost disappearing because of the world we live in now. This globalized world. So for me, it's a way not only to reflect about their processes, about this traditional environments, but also to think of them as a place of culture, and transmission of knowledge. So it's a way to also to try to remember that these places are really important in our society. Places and working jobs that are at risk in our globalized world.
Glen Nelson
I love that. You know, there are a lot of artists whose works I love, let's say conceptual artists, who don't care at all about who manufactures it. I mean, Donald Judd is a hero of mine, for example. And he didn't care about making the artwork itself, he didn't actually call it artwork. They left the fabrication to others. And I was thinking today of an artist who work with some of the same materials that you have used over time, Robert Morris.
Ricardo Rendón
Yeah.
Glen Nelson
But because of your emphasis on construction, the meaning is very different from these other artists, would you agree?
Ricardo Rendón
Yeah, that's, that's a really important thing in my work. And I believe it's part of my statement. I try not to delegate the art production. As you said, it is a common practice in the art world, mostly in the contemporary art world, to delegate the production or execution of the work to a company or to another kind of professional, who makes works as an industry. I'm not against that. But for me, it doesn't make sense, in my own research, in the art practice, and the art process. Why? Because the process for me is as I told you, is the place of more richness and more possibility to, to learn and to get knowledge, not only of materials, or technical things like working process. But you think about the world, you think about yourself, your abilities, your state of mind. So it's a way to reflect also. It's a concentration moment. So I try not to delegate that moment. For me, it's a shame to delegate this execution time. And that's why I also try to document this execution time, and to preserve it as a memoir, in their own work in the work by itself.
Glen Nelson
So let's say you have an artwork that you created, maybe you create it on-site. And once it's over, and you've taken it down, and it comes back to your studio, what happens when you want to exhibit it again? Do you want to remake it? Is the process of recreating it important or is that less important to you?
Ricardo Rendón
Well, I believe that, for me, I think my work is not made of individual works. It's not that every work is different. For me, my work is my art practice. And it's like an environment of working and creative activities. So I think of my work as a shape that is continually evolving. So I make devices, as you said, some of them need the participation of the public. And some of them change each time they are installed. And so it's not that the work is closed. It's always open and evolving to the different conditions of where it is installed, who installs it, who participate in the process, because it's a way to reflect also in this execution and creation of the work.
Glen Nelson
Some of the work of yours that I've been especially attracted to are these huge wall installations there of a single steel cable, and they're on a series of pulleys that kind of loop back and forth and make this very pleasing kind of geometric shape. But then at the bottom of it, there is this long string with an engineer's plumb that's a weight. If those were installed in one place and then reinstalled elsewhere, would you change the scale of them?
Ricardo Rendón
Yes, yes, every time I do this, this similar works, they depend on the conditions of the place where it is exhibited. It could be really small, or it could be on a big wall. And it's not fixed, you know, the angles, the final result is not fixed. It's always changing. And I really enjoy working in that way. I try to reflect the moment, the conditions, of being there, and making the work. And if I do the work once again, every time is different.
Glen Nelson
And this is for the two of you. When I think of Mexican art in the 20th century, I think mostly of the first half of the century. That's what I know best, in particular the murals and social struggle. Would you say that these qualities of social awareness, protest and demonstration, continue into the 21st century in contemporary Mexican art? Or are they different now?
Ricardo Rendón
Well, there are a lot of artists working on social issues. I should say that in my case, this researching labor and trades belong to a political and economic situation proper of Latin American culture, and countries under-development like Mexico. So it's a political statement also. And I don't know, Georgina, also, her work has a political view, too.
Georgina Bringas
Yes, I actually think our work is political. I think that in our context, to make abstract art, not commercial, site specific. And in this economical cultural, and political context of Mexico, it itself is an act of protest. We have a option to do a narrative or art or something more commercial. But we decide to rely on our own personal process, rather than looking for commercial works. So I think it's not something that isn't there, on the first view, but you can see our position, like political, in the way that we make our work.
Glen Nelson
I don't know exactly how to phrase this question. And so you'll forgive me if I get a little bit wrong. But when you show your artwork in your country or elsewhere, I can imagine people looking at it, and trying to make sense of it as anybody would do. But also looking at it with an additional lens, that it being from Mexico or Latin America. In some cases, some of the exhibitions have had that as part of their title, you know, these are works from Latin American artists, for example. Is the viewer correct in trying to find something Mexican in your work? Or is that unfair, to read that into your work?
Ricardo Rendón
Well, I think our work does not reflect an idea of nationality or national issues in that direct way. So I don't think it has a direct relationship to it with this idea of what is Mexican. I believe that contemporary art is a language that is not limited to national borders. So it can work on issues from the local to the global. We live in Mexico City, which as you know, is one of the biggest cities in the whole world and is very cosmopolitan. With all its ups and downs. And in the end, I believe our work is to a reflection of the place and time in which we live. So in some, in some way it must be a reflection also of our identity and nationality, of living in Mexico City.
Georgina Bringas
Yes. It's interesting because I was talking with some friends and I was asking, "What did you, what they think about IMexical... Mexi,.. what is the word?) Mexicality in my work, and they told me something about colors because some crafts in Mexico, has that kind of colors. But in many occasions I think that when we have an exhibit of my work outside Mexico, I have been asked about that kind of question. How they can place my work as a Mexican, and it is related with Mexican Mexican craft. And I will say that the material, maybe the colors, but I think that Mexican is implicit in the concept. And I think the other, the other hand, I believe that my work is related with important Mexican abstract artists. Such as Helen Escobedo, Federico Silva. But it's kind of art that this abstract, and is international, but maybe it's not so famous, like another kind of art from I know, maybe Frida Kahlo or something like that. But I think it's the concept of my work as related with my nationality. It's not something explicit, but it's part of the work in some way.
Glen Nelson
You know, Ricardo, there was one question that I wanted to ask you and I forgot. When we were talking about the way that you make artwork, have you ever made an installation in a museum or gallery setting, and let people watch you install it over a period of time?
Ricardo Rendón
Yes, I like to do also performance, public performances, too. It's a way also to talk about the process. And to not only to show it through to work, but to display the process. Execution also. And also, as you said, in this changing or evolving of our works. More recently, I am working with installation, and sculptural devices that they need the public involvement, to activate the works and to participate in the process of art making in a direct way, too. I like that idea, too.
Glen Nelson
I wish we could go on and on. I feel badly that we're going to run out of time. I would love to come to Mexico and, like, just hang out in your studios and watch your work. If I promise to be really quiet and just sit in the corner, would that be good?
Ricardo Rendón
We'll be glad to have you here.
Glen Nelson
You know, Georgina, you just mentioned Frida Kahlo, and I have a question about famous couples. So I think of famous couples where both people are visual artists, let's say Kahlo and Diego Rivera, or Jackson Pollock and Lee Krasner, or Elaine and Willem de Kooning, or Susan Rothenberg and Bruce Nauman. I guess this is a question about influence. Their works over time had a certain dialogue between them. Viewers often want to make more of their connection than they probably should. But I don't know how you can live with someone and be immersed in the other person's work and creative processes, and not have it influence you and your work at least a little bit. So my question for you is, how do you two think your work has been influenced by the other artist in your marriage, if at all?
Ricardo Rendón
Well, you know, when you leave school, the first thing you miss is this time of talking and showing your work to your fellow artists, as a way to, to review the work and talk and to evolve in your production. In our case, we have each other all the time. So we are always there to listen and to reflect on the work of the other, and also about our projects. So it's, I think it's a way that we are really related. And I guess that's why we're together too. We have a common way of thinking in art, too.
Glen Nelson
Alright, Georgina, what do you think about that?
Georgina Bringas
Yes, I think if we are talking about our work a lot of times, and now I'm like the teacher that Ricardo says, "I don't believe you", and now I say "Come on, I don't believe you." when he made some pieces. I can say that because I know all the process. I know the thing that he wants to get with that kind of raw material. And for me, it's very interesting. Sometimes his process is very different from mine. And sometimes I can understand and I said I don't understand the piece but I want to say at the last result. It will be strange but maybe we are all the time together and we work together. But for me, I can't understand the process of Ricardo sometimes. And for me, it's very interesting, because he's not boring. He's always changing and it makes me understand that I can do that in my process. My process is so linear. It's so very, I don't know, it's simple. But the process of Ricardo is very complex. And for me, it's like a school, like I try to learn about his work. And it's very interesting. It's complicated because both are artists. And we can, I don't know, talking about art, we can have difference. But for me, it's a very interesting way to live.
Glen Nelson
I have loved spending time on your websites. And I think that any person listening would share my enthusiasm for both of your bodies of work by going to your website. On behalf of the Center for Latter-day Saint Arts, I want to thank you Ricardo and Georgina for speaking with me today. I want to mention, too, the Center currently has a call for submissions called "I AM...". It's a program of grants for black, indigenous, and people of color who are artists and scholars, including visual artists, writers, composers, designers, choreographers, filmmakers, dramatists, and scholars. It's available to anyone who self identifies as part of the Latter-day Saint community, and who self identifies as black, indigenous, or a person of color. You can learn more about the call on our website centerforlatterdaysaintarts.org. The deadline for submissions of proposals is February 28, 2021. So thanks again, Georgina and Ricardo. Do you have any last words that you'd like to share?
Georgina Bringas
Thank you, thank you, Glen for this invitation.
Ricardo Rendón
Thanks a lot. It was a pleasure and was really interesting, the questions you proposed for us. Thanks a lot.
Glen Nelson
Well, I do my best. I usually feel guilty when an interview was over I think, "Oh, I should have asked them this!", and I'm sure I will have nightmares tonight, about that. I have to say I'm such a fan of your work and it's just an honor to know it and to count you as friends. And I also want to thank people who are listening, for your support for the Center Studio Podcast and invite you to listen to other podcasts in our series. Goodbye.